Bonus Episode – Third Culture Kids with Intercultural Intelligence as their superpower
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Maggie Reinhart | 00:00
And especially when you're trying to learn other cultures and understand other cultures and other people, you don't want to be offensive. And some people kind of hold back with questions or hold back with certain di erent things. But with ICI, you know it's safe. You know that you can use that to understand cultures correctly and understand without o ending anyone.
Marco Blankenburgh | 00:33
To the Cultural Agility Podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced Intercultural practitioners from around the world to help you become culturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Marco Blankenburgh, International Director of KnowledgeWorkx, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world.
Marco Blankenburgh | 01:01
Thank you everybody for coming. And this is our first time that we're doing a group podcast recording. And I have some dear friends with me and colleagues that we want to have a conversation with around the Intercultural side of life. So before we dive into it, because each one of you has a fascinating story, it would be good to introduce ourselves and to know who's around the table here.
Helen Blankenburgh | 01:31
Okay, so I'll start o . I'm Helen and mini backstory, born and raised in the UAE. I'm still f inishing up high school. And my dad comes from Holland, my mom's from South Africa. So whenever you ask me a question, where are you from? Just give me five minutes to process my answers.
Marco Blankenburgh | 01:52
We'll probably get to that. Yeah. So let's just go around the table. I think that's the easiest.
Shelley Reinhart| 01:59
My name is Maggie Reinhart and I work with Marco here at KnowledgeWorkx. And I'm the Director of KnowledgeWorkx Education. And weaving Intercultural intelligence and education and teachers and them understanding their students.
Maggie Reinhart | 02:07 I. Helen Blankenburgh | 02:07 Love. Shelley Reinhart| 02:13 So that's my passion
Ahmed Msouya | 02:16 My name is Ahmed Msouya. I was born and raised in the UAE as well. But originally I'm from Tanzania. Both my parents are from Tanzania. And currently I'm studying at University of Toronto.
Marco Blankenburgh | 02:28 Awesome.
Maggie Reinhart | 02:29 Hi, I'm Maggie Reinhart. And I was born in Maryland in the United States. And I grew up there for a while. And then I moved to Dubai when I was going into ninth grade. I've moved back to the United States. I'm going to school at York College of Pennsylvania. And I'm studying Human Services.
Marco Blankenburgh | 02:48
Fantastic. Wow. Colorful group of people. And it sounds like there's one thing that we have in common here. And that we live internationally, Intercultural. And Ahmed and Helen, you're actually born into an intercultural context. And I would love to hear a little bit more about that. Now, there's a term that floats around the internet called TCK. Third Culture Kid. Or when the kid grows up, it becomes a TCP. Third Culture Person. But what is that for you? And in which way are you, quote unquote, third culture kid or third culture person? Any of you?
Maggie Reinhart | 03:33
I think for me, I did most of my growing as a person in high school. And since that was in the UAE, I think that has definitely shaped me to be a TCK.
Ahmed Msouya | 03:47
I think for me, I've always been exposed to a lot of different cultures. Living in Dubai for my whole life and everything. And having the influence from my parents and their Tanzanian culture that's brought on to me. But the influence of religion. Because religion is a lot, like another really big part of my culture, being a Muslim. But because I've had a lot of di erent friends from di erent backgrounds as well. I used to live in a di erent house where it was primarily a lot of Indians and Southeast Asians from that kind of background. And then I kind of moved to another place where it was predominantly Arabs in my neighborhood. So I was always exposed to a lot of di erent kinds of people. And I think that's what kind of helped me progress as a TCK or a TCP.
Helen Blankenburgh | 04:34 Yeah, I have to agree with that. Because as you're exposed to so many di erent cultures, you kind of grow like a comedian. Because you have to adapt and change and so on. So for me, that's the first thing that comes to mind when I hear TCK.
Marco Blankenburgh | 04:48 So you're all giving some examples of being a TCK. Growing up in a culture that is a mixed bag of many di erent cultural expressions. Can you recall any stories that might illustrate how mixed that is and what that looks like?
Helen Blankenburgh | 05:05 I one time, because growing up in the UAE, they have this term called, you have a Dubai accent.
Maggie Reinhart | 05:06 Remember.
Helen Blankenburgh | 05:12 Because, you know, depending on who you're talking to, your accent changes. And I remember one time, I was hanging out with a lot of Egyptian friends of mine. And at one point, my friend turned to me and said, Helen, like, you're starting to sound like us. You speak like an Arab now. Like, So then I was like, I just, I never realized that I was doing that.
Maggie Reinhart | 05:27 You're using the same phrases. Helen Blankenburgh | 05:33 So that's just one funny story that I picked up.
Marco Blankenburgh | 05:37 So if I hear you, that ability to blend in, adapt, is something that you just do? Yeah, you.
Helen Blankenburgh | 05:45 Just, I think you just naturally do it without, you know, being aware. And then once you actually go to classes, for example, that explain this study , you're like, wait a second, I already know this.
Marco Blankenburgh | 05:57 That's great. So very agile.
Ahmed Msouya | 06:00 I think for me, you said something about like accents and everything, right? But for me, it was more about tiny little gestures as well. So I was, I had this other like after school activity where it's like extra math or something like that. And a lot of my friends, again, like I said, they were Indian. And they always used to, whenever they were saying yes, they shake their head a little bit. And so I kind of started picking it up as well. And one day I got back home and my mom had asked me if I had taken out the garbage or done all my chores. And I responded with a little head shake. And she was like, Ahmed, where'd you pick that up from? And I'm like, it must have been from my friends after school. And then again, there, whenever I'd come to school, I'd sound a little bit more Arab than I would be when I'd be at home. And I kind of picked things like that up and kind of just progressed from there. Marco Blankenburgh | 06:49 Great example.
Maggie Reinhart | 06:51 I have kind of an accent story. So a few summers ago, I came back to the United States and I saw my best friends who have been my best friends, you know, forever. And they were like, Maggie, you sound so di erent. And I was like, what do you mean? And they're like, you do not, you don't sound Arab, but you don't sound American. I was like, I don't know. I guess it just, you know, happens. And then I stay in the U .S. For two days and it's gone. And then I just have a regular American accent again.
Marco Blankenburgh | 07:22 So it's again adapting fast and blending in with your environment. That's great. Now, when growing up in that context, you know, there's all kinds of people are saying, you know, that must be di icult or, you know, you're not surrounded by your own people. But can you think of things that you really enjoyed about that multicultural, multicolored mix of people around you? What was a fun experience, positive experience? I. Ahmed Msouya | 07:53 Don't know if I have any specific examples per se, but kind of we already touched on it a little bit. I think just being able to go between many di erent friend groups. That was something that I really valued. And I think that was only possible because I was at TCK. Like maybe I'd have one friend group that didn't necessarily agree with the other. But for me, it was easy to interact with them and then easily switch over to the other one whenever I felt like it. And I thought that was really nice. You know, I got to meet a lot more people, see a lot more di erent things, di erent perspectives. And yeah.
Maggie Reinhart | 08:24 Yeah. Helen Blankenburgh | 08:25 Yeah. I kind of agree on that. Because I remember in school, I would always have like a group of friends who were mostly Indian or something. And the other group of friends who were like more Western. And I would always be the one in between having to sort out my busy schedule as a 10 -year -old girl. Like, I'll sit with you guys, break time, and then you guys lunchtime. And I remember I was always that person as well where if someone was having trouble, I'd be like, Helen, this person. I'd always have to like solve the problem for them. So I was always that in -between person.
Marco Blankenburgh | 08:53 A bit of mediation there as well. Yeah. Helen Blankenburgh | 08:55 Cultural mediation. Ahmed Msouya | 08:57 I think it helps as well with teachers, I think. A lot of teachers have di erent teaching styles and they come from di erent backgrounds and everything. And for like a lot of people, if you've only known one sort of teaching style or based on whatever culture they're from, it's hard to kind of switch between di erent people. But for me, I found that a little bit more easier because I guess because of.
Shelley Reinhart| 09:17 My background. Yeah. Marco Blankenburgh | 09:20 So what did you appreciate about growing up in a multicultural context? Maggie Reinhart | 09:25 Moving to the U .S., it was hard at first to kind of understand how to be a regular American. Does that exist? Shelley Reinhart| 09:38 People say it does.
Helen Blankenburgh | 09:41 It.
Maggie Reinhart | 09:42 And I didn't really want to stick out, you know, as not a regular American. But the more I would talk to people and everything, you know, you just can't fit in to the point where, okay, I'm a regular American. So you just kind of roll with it and you just go with it. And I didn't really appreciate that I had those abilities until I moved to the U .S. And really got to work with them and really like show people them. So in a way, I guess it's good that I wasn't really accepted into the regular American kind of stereotype. So I was able to use my skills.
Marco Blankenburgh | 10:19 Yeah. We'll come back to that a bit more later on as well. But several of you touched on friendship. And friendship is a big thing in terms of growing, forming yourself, forming your own identity. Marco Blankenburgh | 10:35 Some people.
Marco Blankenburgh | 10:35 Say that having such a mixed environment around you is confusing in terms of who you are or who you want to become. I see you nodding. But is that true? Absolutely. How do you deal with it? Maggie Reinhart | 10:53 How I kind of think of it is, so I came a little later into the TCK game and world. But it was hard to kind of merge into that world. But then when you do, everyone is so di erent and everyone is so unique in their own way. And with ICI, we learned that you need to create culture. When there are opposite cultures and di erent cultures, you create culture where you are. So once you're in that diverse world, you create culture together. And that's how I would deal with it. Ask questions. In the U .S., you don't really ask as many questions. You kind of just be like, okay. But moving here, I've been able to ask so many questions, especially about Islam and the Arab culture. And it's just been great because now I have, again, skills and abilities to be able to question and to be able to create culture together when everyone's di erent. Marco Blankenburgh | 11:55 That's great.
Ahmed Msouya | 11:56 For me, though, I never really saw it as necessarily too confusing being around a lot of mix of cultures. I think that's a lot thanks to my familial influence at home. Because my mom, she made sure that I'd always have these one set of values where I could always fall back on and everything. And because I was taught that that's kind of really ingrained in my culture, I never felt that if I'm interacting with all these other di erent people from di erent backgrounds, I could take di erent things from them, learn from them, experience things that I wouldn't have if I never met them. But at the same time, I'm keeping my own cultural integrity. But I think that's for me, that, like I said, it's a lot thanks to my familial influence and that kind of area of my life.
Helen Blankenburgh | 12:41 I have to agree with you as well, because, yes, in the social aspect, it would be kind of confusing because you never really fit in anywhere. And you can never classify yourself as either one or the other. You're always a mix. But then again, you know, having those morals from religion, you always have that side of identity that is completely stable. But then with the social, for me, it took a lot longer to really find out who I was in that place and finding, you know, how do I fit into these groups of people or how I'm made to interact with other people. But I find that because it took a lot longer, the moment when I kind of realized who I was in that aspect, it was a lot more of a strong realization and more knowledgeable in the way that I should and would interact with other people. Marco Blankenburgh | 13:29 I'm picking up something that's fascinating here from all three of you, that there is, in the midst of all these options that you see around you and all these di erent ways of doing things, there is something that sort of anchors you and that makes it easier to navigate things. So, there's always something to come back to that holds you anchored. So, I'm curious, when you think about the, not the philosophical or religious side of anchoring, you know, like morals and values and everything, but if you think about the fun stu , maybe quirky, crazy stu that you do as a family or that you do regularly with your friends. Do you have any examples of like things that are reoccurring that you do as a family or that you do with your friends that is fun stu that bring back good memories?
Helen Blankenburgh | 14:21 I think everyone who knows our family knows, the Blankenburgh, they camp a lot, like every single weekend they all camp. So, I think our family has always been the one that explores like new destinations and new places and we're always everywhere and constantly inviting new people over. We're like, they can come over. So, sometimes there has to be some restrictions because you can't have 100 people come over, but that's just one thing that we're always doing. Ahmed Msouya | 14:49 I guess for me, I think I have two things. One of them is travel. My family really likes to travel a lot. Every chance we get on a vacation, we like to go to a new place and that's why we don't necessarily go back to Tanzania as often because we prefer to see di erent cultures, see di erent places, see di erent sites. And I think that's something that has influenced me a lot. And the second thing is it's kind of more frequent. Every Friday we go to my grandma's house and we spend lunch with each other and everything. And sometimes we'll play games or charades or something like that or board games or anything. And it kind of lightens up the mood. Everyone gets involved, my grandpa, my grandma, everyone. It's a really comical site. Sometimes it gets heated as well. We argue with each other. That's awesome. But yeah, it's kind of really refreshing when we have those kind of outings, especially when we're like as a huge family. And I think that's really, it's a good setback for the week. Once that's happened, we can all go back to the rest of our lives. It's like reset. Yeah, exactly.
Marco Blankenburgh | 15:52 That's great. Maggie Reinhart | 15:53 I think for me, kind of similar to you, Helen, people. People have always been a part of our family. If you know my mom, she would talk to anyone, anywhere about anything, anytime. So usually we invite people over and we just get to know the community, especially our church community, our neighborhood community. And that's always just been a big part. So I would say other people are a part of our family and our family's culture and activities.
Marco Blankenburgh | 16:29 You mentioned earlier on, Agida, this idea of creating culture is one of the new things that you've learned in the last few years, which alludes to Intercultural intelligence and some of the things that we teach in the Intercultural Intelligence Program. So I just want to shift gears and I'm curious, how, as a young person, how did you get interested in Intercultural intelligence? Because it's one thing to grow up in an intercultural environment, but to actually systematically study it, that's not for everybody. So how did that start for you and how did you end up in the Intercultural intelligence space? Maggie Reinhart | 17:13 Well, for me, my mom works at KnowledgeWorkx. And so she would come home every day at the dinner table and we would talk and she would talk about ICI and her day at work and working with people and everything. And of course, my rebellious self, I was like, yeah, like, you know, it's just my mom thing. And then she kind of gave me these resources and videos of ICI and the world of diversity and everything. And I was like, OK, this actually seems kind of cool. I'll give it a shot. And then I came to training and I absolutely fell in love with it. And I just wanted to use it all the time now. And I still want to use it all the time. So that's how I really got into it. Ahmed Msouya | 17:58 For me as well, it's kind of your mom that kind of introduced it to me and everything. I actually remember it was my sister had come back from school one day and she told me that, Ahmed, you know, Maggie's mom has this really cool thing. And she was talking about how she'd love for you to join it because you're a TCK. And I was like, sure, why not? There's just another thing to add to my day. And when we first met, you talked to me all about how it can help you market yourself, understand things about yourself. And I thought that was really interesting, especially going forward, going into university and everything and then going even the rest of my life. I thought that'd be a valuable skill for me just to have in general. And so I just started the course. And ever since I've really enjoyed it. Yeah. Helen Blankenburgh | 18:45 I'd have to say I'm a lot more Maggie type because of course, Marco is my dad. So every single night at the dinner table, whether I realize it or not, it would always be the topic of interest that was discussed. And, you know, growing up, it just I think it was just part of our normal language. Like I thought everybody talked about it. And so, of course, you know, you grow up, you get more knowledge about the world around you. And I think it was going into the training and was like, OK, just another, you know, probably beneficial thing that I could add to things I've done. But then as I went through it, I was like listening to everybody discussing it. And so I love that. And the more we discussed, I saw how much it was integrated into the world and how much it was used and how much of a tool it is for problem solving, which I love. I love solving problems and bringing people together and connecting it. Marco Blankenburgh | 19:45 Since you are instigator for Armand and Maggie, I'm just curious, as you were starting to talk about ICI to them, what were you hoping for? What were you thinking of in terms of their lives? Shelley Reinhart| 20:04 When I first was introduced to the three colors and that simple framework for how to see the world and understand the world, it just changed everything. And it changed the way I saw things. So I would talk about that at dinner. This is an interesting honor -shame situation. This is the world view that they're viewing this from. Let's talk about that. And it was starting to sink in. They were starting to see it from that lens. And then when I would go to UAS, Universal American School, where I sometimes teach and interact there, I would talk about the three world views. And your sister was really interested. She was like, what do you mean? Power fear? What is that? And she would just ask lots of questions. And I just knew the two of you would really connect. So just knowing that it's going to change the way you see the world. It's going to help you categorize it and understand it in a way that's just so helpful. Marco Blankenburgh | 21:07 So let's put that to the test. So Shelley hoped that it would change the way you see the world. Yes, Did that happen? Helen Blankenburgh | 21:15 Fingers crossed. Marco Blankenburgh | 21:19 Yes. Any of the three of. Ahmed Msouya | 21:22 I mean, I just think it's so applicable to everything, you know, like you said, you start talking about it at the dinner table. And I think the same sort of thing kind of happened when I started introducing it to my family. We'd always have lunch with each other and I'd start saying, I'd let them tell me about their days, you know, what kind of happened. And then I'd start categorizing for them. I'm like, maybe this is related to honor -shame, this is related to power fear, innocent guilt. Or maybe you interpreted it this way because we come from maybe an honor -shame background or an innocent guilt background or what kind of is influencing our decisions. And I found that really interesting because when you think about it, there's so many di erent situations where when you're thinking about three color worldviews, you see the situation di erently. And you see not only your own perspective, you see another person's perspective. And because of that, it's actually helped me out a lot when I'm interacting with people, especially strangers that I never knew. Helen Blankenburgh | 22:18 Yeah, for me, it's definitely like, you know, you put on a whole set of new glasses after living your whole life, you know, seeing blurry vision. You hear all the voices and everything, but then you put on the glasses and it all makes sense. And I think that was just one of the joys where I was like, like bulb, like everything makes sense now. Shelley Reinhart| 22:33 Light. Helen Blankenburgh | 22:35 And I understand why this person might react that way and how I can, you know, interact with them on a more influential, more positive note, which I just love. So I definitely see that everywhere around me. Maggie Reinhart | 22:49 For, yeah, it's kind of the same for me. I just, well, at the time when I was actually taking the course, I was struggling with some people at school. I just didn't understand why they did this or like, why do they think this way? It's so frustrating. And then, you know, I took the class and I realized, well, that's what they've known their whole life. Coming from America, coming from an innocent guilt background, it's always, okay, well, what's right and what's wrong? That's the mindset that I had. And I, you know, just was frustrated. And then taking this course, it really did show me that it's not, the world is not only innocence guilt. That's not how the world should be viewed. It's viewed with the three di erent worldviews. And there's just so much more to just this one perspective. And that really helps me even talk to the people at school and view the situation di erently. Helen Blankenburgh | 23:47 Yeah, with the perspective as well, like even just reading an article, for example, you know, knowing this, you kind of can guess where this, you know, journalist or whoever, you know, comes from. And then I think I love that as well, because then it stimulates you to go research other articles based around the same topic to get a more universal and whole story. Ahmed Msouya | 24:07 I really agree with the research part as well. Because when I started finding out about how some cultures are more predominantly honor shame, some are more innocent guilt. I kind of, I found that when I was looking it up, it's really steeped in their history. And like, if you look back as well, you see a lot of examples of that. And you find a lot of interesting things about a culture or a place that you never would have found out about in the first place. I think that was really good. Marco Blankenburgh | 24:35 We just dove in talking about FICI. And you gave some practical examples. But if I put you on the spot, what in the world is Intercultural intelligence? Maggie already alluded to creating culture as a big part, being able to create culture as a big part of it. But how would you describe it to somebody who's never heard of this thing before? What would you say are important components of it? Helen Blankenburgh | 25:05 This is where I wish there was a dictionary definition. Shelley Reinhart| 25:09 Nope. I. Maggie Reinhart | 25:10 Would say, if no one, if they had never heard of it, I would say it is viewing the world through di erent lenses. And understanding that the world is not the same. And I know that's such like a basic thing to say, the world's not the same. But it's really not. Like the more you dive into it and understand our history as humans and understand everything is di erent in all di erent parts of the world. So that's the first thing, understanding that the world is not the same. And one way is not right or the other. And Yeah, absolutely. Marco Blankenburgh | 25:47 Possibly having a language to actually talk about it. Because it's one thing to say we are all di erent. Yeah. But to not know how to articulate that beyond the point of saying, you're American or you're Emirati or you're Korean. Instead, having a more neutral language to actually talk about in which way are we di erent. I think. Ahmed Msouya | 26:12 Actually how you said over articulating is really important. Because as TCKs, for me at least, I felt maybe vaguely that I've already been doing maybe some of the things that ICI teaches me because of my background. But then after learning about it became easier to kind of see everything more clearly and then to explain it more clearly as well. To explain maybe how I feel, maybe I should act this way around someone else. But why am I doing that? Helen Blankenburgh | 26:41 Yeah. For me, the first thing that comes to mind when I hear ICI is the ability to explain ICI to another person. Not through a presentation, but through the way that you act and interact and you speak, of course, as we discussed. And the ability to really adapt according to those around you. And you're really creating a culture, whether it's one on one or one out of ten. But creating that atmosphere where everyone feels safe and not judged or dishonored or overpowered or so on. But really being able to do that in those settings. Maggie Reinhart | 27:16 Yeah. And especially when you're trying to learn other cultures and understand other cultures and other people, you don't want to be o ensive. And some people kind of hold back with questions or hold back with certain di erent things. But with ICI, you know it's safe. You know that you can use that to understand cultures correctly and understand without o ending anyone. Marco Blankenburgh | 27:42 So if that's the case, you've already given examples along these lines, but what do you do with it? So, Ahmed, you are studying virtually. Yeah. You're studying at a Canadian university. You actually went back to the States. You're actually studying in the US. And Helen is on her way to hopefully start studying in Europe. What do you do with ICI? From the simple, you know, friendship, family relationships to the way you interact with your professors, peers, textbooks maybe. What do you do with it? I. Ahmed Msouya | 28:23 Mean, for me, I think especially going into university and anything, it really helps with making new friends. Because I can kind of see where we'd use something similar, let's say, and maybe where we'd use something di erent and how we'd get along based on that. And I feel like it's, like I said before, it's easy to flip between friend groups. And it's just overall, it's easy to meet new people using ICI. Because you understand people so well now with the tools that ICI gives you, it's easier to talk to them, interact with them, understand some of their actions. And you just build relationships that are going to last longer in general. And I feel like if we're talking about maybe the academic setting as well, honestly, being in the UAE, I've learned a certain way. I mean, my school is predominantly innocence, guilt, but there are aspects of honour, shame as well within it. But now I'm going to a place where it's predominantly only innocence, guilt. And because I'm aware of that now, the transition is obviously going to be much more smoother than if I had no knowledge whatsoever. Marco Blankenburgh | 29:25 That's interesting. Can I just put you on the spot there? You're saying the university in Canada is more innocence, guilt oriented the way they run. Do you have any examples of what that looks like? How do you notice it? Ahmed Msouya | 29:39 I think I notice it. It's been a bit di icult, to be honest, being it's been online and everything. So I haven't been able to experience it to the full extent that I'd normally experience it. But I think from the attitude, let's say, of my teachers, for example, it's a lot more about self learning and questioning about what you're learning about. And kind of doing a lot of that, a lot of your study by yourself, you know, taking the interest for yourself. Not necessarily about the grade that you get, but more about the process and the journey to getting that grade. And I think that in and of itself is very di erent from kind of what I experienced here in school. I mean, there are elements of that in my school, like I said, it's innocence, guilt. But I feel like a lot of emphasis is placed on the grade at times over here. You know, you do this to get this grade so that you can get to this place. Marco Blankenburgh | 30:33 Is the grade, because you're saying more, you're experiencing more individual approach in the university you're in right now. Out of interest, and you mentioned there's the grade itself. Is the grade linked to how your family is viewed or the height, you know, how well you perform in school, that that's linked to the family in some way or another? I. Ahmed Msouya | 30:57 Think for sure it would be that way. And how I perform in school or how I perform in general will always be linked back to my family. And it happens even with my mom and my dad and everything. We have this thing in Tanzania, sometimes you won't be called by your name, you'll be called by your title. So some people, they call my mom doctor instead of her name Khadija. Because that's kind of her profession, that's what she's known as. And then some people will be given honor titles, you know, boss, chief, based on what they do, how they interact with other people. And I think because of that kind of culture that they come from, obviously the same thing applies to me. How I perform reflects back on them as well. Shelley Reinhart| 31:41 What do you want to do for your career? Ahmed Msouya | 31:45 I'm currently studying biology on track to pre -med. Shelley Reinhart| 31:48 Okay, so be a doctor, a medical doctor. Exactly, yeah. So how do you see ICI a ecting your medical practice, just out. Ahmed Msouya | 31:55 Of curiosity? I think it's very important, especially when talking with di erent patients. Obviously I've talked with my mom as well and she says the same thing. Sometimes you have a doctor who's very well abled, they're very well versed in the field that they're in. But when it comes to communicating with the patients and making them feel like it's a good environment, a good atmosphere, a place of healing and everything like that. That's where some people fail. And that's a very critical thing in a medical profession. You need to have that ability. And I think with ICI it makes it much more easier to kind of navigate and have that sort of communication. Marco Blankenburgh | 32:35 So Maggie, you're now one year back into studies. One semester. One semester into studies in the US. How does it show up day to day for you? Maggie Reinhart | 32:46 So where I am, it is very much, and I don't want to stereotype, but it is very much American driven, innocence, guilt. A lot of people are white. There are very few people who are not white. And so it's been di icult using just that. Because when you think ICI, you think like multiple di erent races and everything. But honestly, ICI works with just a regular group of people too, because each person is di erent and they have their own di erent amounts of three world views. One thing that I've noticed is that in the southern United States, while it is still innocence, guilt, there is honor, shame, honoring your family, honoring, making sure that you are doing your parents proud. You said something about my mom. That's not okay. Like that's my family you're going after. And I definitely have noticed that where I am too. So that's been really helpful. It's just like it's opening my eyes to see that we aren't all the same. It's not just, all Americans are the same or, all Africans are the same or all Arabs are the same. It's given me lenses to look even deeper into my own culture and my own, you know. Yeah. Helen Blankenburgh | 34:11 Yeah. Leading o what Maggie said, of course, I'm still finishing up high school. And for me, of course, not having gone to college and so on, it really starts, you know, who am I as a person? Like, what is what cultures make up me? And so I love that because it really starts at the core and then ventures outward because, you know, once you discover who you are and how you're made, like why you act and so on, then you really understand how to interact with the world around you as we've, you know, said previous times as well. So I think it's really inward, outward process. Marco Blankenburgh | 34:44 So we're sort of reaching the end of our time. And all three of you had the privilege to be part of the ICI certification because KnowledgeWorkx has a scholarship for teenagers. And we, you know, we have a vision to raise up young people who are world changers. And that's, you know, Shelley already alluded to it earlier when she started saying you should join this program. So if you had a chance to talk to other teens about this program, why should they bother? What would you say to them? Why would they have to consider Intercultural intelligence as something to take into their bag of tools into the future? Helen Blankenburgh | 35:34 I'm very tempted to say you all understand me, you grew up. But that won't convince them. But I would definitely say that as a younger generation, I find that for us is very di icult to interact sometimes because everyone's always on their phones. And it's like very awkward sometimes when you meet a new person, you're like, what am I supposed to like, talk about? Or like, I don't know, like, especially nowadays, I'm so scared to talk about anything with politics or races, because I'm like, how am I going to defend that person? And ISEI, I think it really stretches your tools and your abilities to just interact with people on a more comfortable level. And to really kind of understand them and analyze them. Not that you're drawing final conclusions, but really understanding the person. And because of that, you're more interested in your relationship with that person, which I think is always very beneficial. Ahmed Msouya | 36:28 I completely agree with everything that you said. I think there's like a lot of practicality to it in general. I mean, we've learned we had some of these case studies where a lot of businesses have lost out a lot of money because they weren't necessarily culturally aware about the situation that they were in. And I think that kind of appeal, especially to our generation, I think we're starting to get more into, OK, how can we... A lot of people are business oriented is what I'm saying. I have a lot of friends as well who want to go into sports management. And I feel like if they were to learn about things that are in ISEI or a lot about more about culture, it'll help give them an edge on other people that they're competing with against. And I think that's a really thing that makes the program so attractive. Maggie Reinhart | 37:12 And for me, honestly, I would just say life gets easier because life is so complicated. And especially when you're trying to understand people and understand how to fit into society, it just makes it easier because you're learning these things and these tools and you just approach situations di erent. So like if you're in a conflict with a co -worker or a peer, you kind of... If you look through the ISEI lens, you say, OK, so this is a problem because this and this. It just makes things easier with conflict. You understand. And for me, I love to know everything. I don't want any gray spaces or anything like that. And so with ISEI, getting to know the world, like it kind of puts that in perspective. Helen Blankenburgh | 38:01 Yeah. And I must say, whenever I hear ISEI, the first thing I kind of impression I got was it was do with people. But I feel like it's so relevant for both experts and introverts. I mean, you could be sitting in your o ice all day and working on graphics design and you could definitely still use it on how you present whatever you're designing. So it really is just a universal tool that anybody can use in any situation. Marco Blankenburgh | 38:26 Wow. Thank you so much. Great conversation. Great conversation. Shelley Reinhart| 38:30 It was great. Maggie Reinhart | 38:30 Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thank you. Shelley Reinhart| 38:34 The students that you're hearing from today are all recipients of our Intercultural Intelligence Student Scholarship. And these students were chosen because they already are practicing cultural intelligence in their day to day lives and in their relationships. They clearly have a desire to relate to people who have a very di erent way of seeing the world than they do. We're really proud of these students and the work they've done on their ICI journey with KnowledgeWorkx. We're confident that they will be cultural bridge builders and world changers. If you're a student and you're listening and you'd like to apply for a scholarship to join the Intercultural journey with KnowledgeWorkx, you'll find the link in the notes of this podcast.
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Episode 1 – Intercultural Teams with Linda Berlot
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Linda Berlot | 00:00 When I go back to Italy, they call me la straniera, which is the stranger, because I'm no longer so Italian. I've been influenced by my time in Africa, my time in Hong Kong. I've been living here for 16 years, so I have—all of these experiences have shaped me as a unique individual. So looking at culture from an individual perspective gives us a broader understanding of the individual sitting in front of you, rather than just a generalization around the nationality. Marco Blankenburgh | 00:36 Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners from around the world to help you become culturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Marco Blankenberg, International Director of KnowledgeWorkx, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. So, Linda, welcome to this podcast, and I have actually wanted to do this for quite some time. Now we finally sit in the KnowledgeWorkx podcast studio, and we have a chance to sit and talk about all things intercultural. So thank you for agreeing to do this. Just for our listeners, Linda and I have known each other for a very long time, and ever since we connected more than 15 years ago, we had the chance to work together on and o . And thank you for joining me in this podcast. And I don't want to say too much about Linda, because you're here, so I'd love to hand it over to you and just introduce yourself to our listeners. Linda Berlot | 01:48 Thank you, Marco, for inviting me here. It's always delightful for me to spend time with you and for us to talk about what we love together. So who is Linda? It's a really good question. I had to think about that. Linda Bruna, Laura Berlotte, for the people that don't believe I'm Italian, because they're listening to my accent. I have lived here in the Middle East for the last 16 years, but have lived in many di erent places before that. I am an original Italian, should I say. So that's the blood that runs through my veins. And my professional background has been always in learning and development, although I spent many years in the cosmetics industry and lived and worked in di erent countries. Now I live here in Dubai and I lead an organization that is a team coaching organization. And we coach leadership teams across the region. Marco Blankenburgh | 02:47 Fascinating. So it sounds like a lot of what you do is intercultural. Linda Berlot | 02:51 100 percent. All of my teams are multicultural teams. Wow. Yeah. It's one of the things I love most about living in this part of the world. And in Dubai in particular, where we've got over 200 nationalities, for me, that's such a gift. I'm not sure I could live in a monocultural society anymore. Marco Blankenburgh | 03:09 So it seems if intercultural is so quote unquote normal for you, could you recall a time where intercultural became real for you? That having been raised, lived in di erent countries, worked in di erent countries. But can you recall a moment that's where the intercultural piece became like staring you in the face or looking at you in the mirror? Linda Berlot | 03:35 Well, when I was 16, my parents divorced. And so I went to live with my mom and we moved to Africa. I lived in Africa for many years, di erent countries in Africa. And as a young person, every time we went to a new country, it was a new school. And I was very aware, even at that time of di erences between us. You know, at the time we went to Zimbabwe, that was the first country that we went to. And we had they had just come out of the civil war. And culturally, I felt more a inity for the kids of color than the kids with my own skin color. But I was white. So the kids of color didn't relate to me. I was continental. So the white kids didn't relate to me either. And so I was very aware at that moment that there are di erences between us. And I had to get curious about those because I had to f ind ways to relate to the kids in the school. Marco Blankenburgh | 04:31 So it sounds like at an earlier age already, you were thrown into that situation. Any stories that come to mind of how that was either easy or di icult? Linda Berlot | 04:42 It was challenging. I went to a country which was, they had been a colony and they were predominantly, you know, it was British. And so being an Italian and continental and probably more emotional than they had expressed or experienced, I found that there was a lot of prejudice when I was behaving a certain way, you know, it's to be expected, she's a continental, or just that they didn't understand why I was feeling and expressing myself in a particular way. I felt like I had to fit in and conform, which was really challenging. I found that first move to Zimbabwe hard. Later, it became easier. Marco Blankenburgh | 05:29 So it sounds like you really were, I wouldn't say forced, but the context required from you to already develop intercultural skills for quite early. Yes. Linda Berlot | 05:39 Yeah, absolutely. And then it became easier once I clocked it as a young person, or it became part of the lens through which I looked. Every time I moved to a di erent country, it became easier because I was, you know, I knew what to expect, even though the culture might have been di erent. I was ready to look through that lens and look at how can I adapt and fit in. Sometimes it meant hiding in my apartment or in a hotel room for three days to deal with the culture shock. I did that once, first time traveling to Bangkok. I was so di erent. I was blonde and curly haired and stood out from the crowd. And I really was aware of the cultural di erence. And it was the one time where I really su ered that cultural shock. I sat in the hotel for three days before I had the courage to then go out and explore. Marco Blankenburgh | 06:35 Actually, that raises a good point, because even though you might have a lot of intercultural experience, culture shock can still happen. And that's something that people tend to forget. No matter how culturally agile you are, you could still end up in that environment where everything just hits you. And like you said, hiding in your hotel room. Sure. Linda Berlot | 06:57 I, it was new. It was a new experience for me because even as a young person, after my studies, I put on my backpack and traveled the world for a year. And I always used to think to myself, language is not a barrier to communication. And I would find ways of communicating with the people I needed to in whichever language. And it was a fun thing that I liked to do. And, however, sometimes you are so di erent from the group that you find yourself in, it takes a moment to kind of be there. Yeah. And to deal with what's going on inside you. Yeah. Marco Blankenburgh | 07:39 So we got to know each other in the UAE, in Dubai, many years ago. So even when the framework of intercultural intelligence was first introduced to you had a lot of intercultural experience already. So it wasn't that you lacked experience. What attracted you to the idea of intercultural intelligence? Linda Berlot | 08:03 Well, I think, finally, I found words for what I had experienced. And everything started to make sense when I started to learn the program and learn the language and the views to look through what I was looking at. And I had always been super curious about di erent cultures and languages and the way that people behave and why people behave in a certain way. And so when I met you and we started to talk about this, and you introduced the program and the learning to me, the methodology, for me, it was just like coming home. It felt like finally I had, wow, what my experience was real and what I was thinking and I had experienced I could now talk about. Marco Blankenburgh | 08:50 So you say, I can talk about it. Explain that a little bit more, because you were telling stories about your life to whoever wanted to listen. That was normal anyway. But what shifts using the ICI framework, the language, what starts to change? Linda Berlot | 09:11 Well, I was telling stories on my experience. And when I came to the program, I started to learn that indeed we are di erent and we look at the world very di erently. You know, the worldviews was so powerful for me. I could see that happening in my own family. You know, the power fear dynamic and the honor shame, you know, as an Italian and having to behave in the right way and say the right things and to not let the family down or not let shame, you know, come onto the family. So I had all this language and I started to really learn how really di erent we are. But to be curious about di erent cultures rather than criticize. And that's a trap. I think we are judgment machines, right? So all of a sudden someone passes a piece of information to you that explains to you about being curious and being a cultural critic versus somebody who's more curious and asks more questions. That for me in itself was revolutionary, even though I'd been practicing it, to now start to understand why I was getting upset with prejudice and things like that. Yeah. Marco Blankenburgh | 10:27 I think you raise a good point that very often we can talk about the what and we can maybe talk about, you know, how we got to where we are. Yeah. But digging deeper into understanding the why and having a language to express the why I think is one of the things that the Intercultural Intelligence Framework does really. Linda Berlot | 10:45 Well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. The other thing I really enjoyed was understanding that we are di erent. We come from di erent places, right? Even as individuals we are di erent. However, how can we come together and create a space that involves both me and you and doesn't marginalize either one of us? Yeah. So that for me was enlightening. Marco Blankenburgh | 11:07 One of the things we've done with intercultural intelligence is we sort of said, well, nationality is helpful or ethnicity is helpful, but we said from the beginning that really we are all uniquely wired cultural human beings. Yeah. And you've lived that. I know that from experience that every person is truly unique. We all bring our unique journey in life to the table. But just for the listeners, why should we not try to understand culture making nationality or ethnicity the starting point of the journey? Because that's what we do, right, as humanity. Yeah. If you had to explain that to our listeners, what would you say? Why is the personal approach better than the nationality approach? Linda Berlot | 11:58 I think there's value to learning about the nationality approach. However, I think if that's the only lens that you look at, you miss out on discovering who the person really is. Because take me for example. I'm an Italian. My parents are Italian. My background is Italian. However, I've lived out of Italy since I was 16 years old. And when I go back to Italy, they call me la straniera, which is the stranger, because I'm no longer so Italian. I've been influenced by my time in Africa, my time in Hong Kong. I've been living here for 16 years. So I have all of these experiences have shaped me as a unique individual. So looking at culture from an individual perspective gives us a broader understanding of the individual sitting in front of you rather than just a generalization around the nationality. Marco Blankenburgh | 12:48 And you already mentioned, you know, being a cultural learner is totally linked to that. So personally wrapping your head around who you are, you have a very culturally colorful history yourself, journey. Using the intercultural intelligence language, the three colors of worldview, the 12 dimensions of culture, how does that personally impact you? What does it do to you? Linda Berlot | 13:15 Well, first of all, it's given me a lot of insight about how and why I behave in certain ways, you know why I rebel towards certain things. It's given me an understanding of how I speak and communicate, the tone in my voice, you know, and an awareness of what the impact that could be on other worldviews. So if I'm very definitive, for example, and I come from a very powerful dynamic, I come across as very telling rather than eliciting a conversation as an example. Marco Blankenburgh | 13:53 Yeah. Now, of course, if that's the type of impact it has on you, it obviously then starts to show in the way you interact with other people. Right. So maybe I'm putting you on the spot here, but could you think of an example with how that realization that starts to change the way you interact with others? Linda Berlot | 14:14 Sure. I have a – well, it's twofold. So when it's being done to me versus when I do it. So I come from a family where, you know, my dad is the head of the family and it's quite hierarchical, it's power fear. And when my dad, bless him, who I love very much, but when he steps into his hierarchy, I rebel 100%. And yet I do it. I do the same thing naturally. I step into hierarchy partly because of my personality and the way I was raised, partly because of my role. And now I'm very aware if that's what it does to me, I can only imagine what it must do to someone else who comes from the same power fear dynamic or somebody who is not used to speaking up directly. So I'm conscious that if I step into certain behaviors, am I creating a space which shuts people down or does it allow people to flourish? Marco Blankenburgh | 15:16 Fascinating. Yeah. Now, in your work, you've chosen to predominantly work with people, alongside people. You mentioned earlier on that your work is 100 % intercultural, which is on the one hand, you know, foreign maybe to some of the listeners here. They might have an intercultural connect a few times a year. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about your work with Burlap Group. What do you guys do and how do you use the intercultural side of what you've learned in your work? Yeah. Linda Berlot | 15:52 Sure. Just as an anecdote before, when you were asking me the question, I remembered I was on a global leadership call and they were discussing a particular question. And when they asked the question, of course, I go to the intercultural and working with multicultural teams. And I gave my view from there. And I said, before I can even address that question, these are the parameters that I have to face and consider when working with a multicultural group. And I started to name them and there was silence on this. There were probably 30 people on the call. And I asked, it was not the Zoom times. It was phone call conference times. I said, is anybody out there? And the response was almost unanimous. You know, Linda, we don't even think about those kind of things when we are coaching our teams. So working with the multicultural group really does bring a di erent flavor to how you work with them. But who Burlap Group is, we coach leadership teams across the region and they are multicultural teams. And my intercultural work, although what we focus on is relationships and team dynamics. So really working with the system as a whole and helping them be in right relationship with each other, because we believe they are the experts in what they do. But it's in the dynamics between them where it can go beautifully well or horribly wrong. And that's what prevents them from being productive. So I've worked with the ORSC model with the teams that I work It's a mouthful. Marco Blankenburgh | 17:33 With. And ORSC, that's an acronym? It is. Business speak? Linda Berlot | 17:40 Organization and Relationship Systems Coaching, which is a coaching model created by CRR Global. And the uniqueness about the model is that we coach the system as a whole or the team as one entity. Can Sure. Marco Blankenburgh | 17:56 You explain that a little bit more? Coach the system as a whole? Linda Berlot | 18:00 Absolutely. So instead of coaching the individuals as individuals, we coach. It's almost like when they come together, when two or more people come together, there's a dynamic that's created. There's a relationship that's created. So there's me and there's you and then there's the we. And so everything that we do when I'm working with the team is in service of the we, is in service of the team. You can think about it. So band, think about a band. I used to say the Beatles. And nowadays, these some people say, who are the Beatles? But imagine any band, there are the players in the band, the, you know, the players. But there is a we -ness and the band has a clear identity. And every band's identity is di erent from each other. And so we work with the band and everything that the players and the coach does is in service of the band. Couples understand that very well, then teams less so, because very often there's a thinking that, you know, if I'm doing my work over here, I'm not really impacting you. And so we teach them to see that everything we do or don't do impacts the team. Culture, of course, comes into it because very often diversity is a gift because it brings so much to the table. But whenever something is di erent has the, it can be challenging. And very often there are challenges that team members face between them, like, you know, cultural misunderstanding or communication misunderstandings. And so if they are culturally intelligent, they know how to work with it. But more often it creates conflict and misalignment. Marco Blankenburgh | 19:43 So… Reminds me a little bit, it sounds like ORSK as a method coaching the system. It sounds like systems thinking, like there is interconnectedness between people, there is synergy, there is convergence, there is, you're not silos on your own. Right. Does that, do you see that connect? Linda Berlot | 20:03 Yes, absolutely. Marco Blankenburgh | 20:04 Yes. So coaching the whole dynamic, every facet of the dynamic of the team. In that sense, you already alluded to it just now, but how does the intercultural intelligence way of thinking, how does that fit in? We chose from the beginning already back in 2003 that we would see culture as something that's first and foremost personal, a reflection of your personal journey in life. Yeah. How does that connect with how ORSK tries to facilitate teams? Linda Berlot | 20:36 I think very well, which is one of the reasons why I was so in love with your model and your material, because I could marry the two so easily. We teach that, you know, when two or more people come together, we consciously and intentionally create the relationship that we want. So we create a third entity. The ICI teaches that there's my culture, there's your culture, but we want to be conscious about the third cultural space that we want to create, so that we don't marginalize anybody, so that every voice is included and becomes part of the system or the team. So the thinking is very similar. We want to create, we say using our language, we want to be in right relationship with each other. Yeah. And be conscious and intentional about how we design that, which means looking at the individuals, hearing each voice, and then creating a team space where everybody's included and maybe creating a culture and a set of behavioral norms that we can all align to, given that we are all di erent. Yeah. Marco Blankenburgh | 21:45 Yeah. Now, I love hearing you talk about it, but it sounds awfully complex and challenging. Can people actually, you know, how long does it take to really be good at this stu ? What does it take? Linda Berlot | 22:00 Is it complex? Perhaps it is. I find it fascinating. And so, and I think anybody who's worked and lived in a multicultural environment quickly identifies to it. And I think like anything that's new, it needs to be brought. So awareness has to be created. But if you're working with a team over a period of time, because that's when you can start to change behavior, you help the team really clarify what are the behavioral agreements that will take us to creating the culture that we want. And then, you know, every time I meet with a team and I check in on their behavioral agreements, that's when we kind of course correct and make small shifts. And eventually over time, they can look back and see the change that they've made as a team to becoming who they want to be. So it's complex, sure, but not, you know, if we are conscious and intentional. And, you know, being in right relationship doesn't mean being perfect. It means how do we stay open, stay curious, not judge, you know, those are kind of. Marco Blankenburgh | 23:05 Things. Now, we've talked about teams like organization or teams, but it strikes me that what you're involved with could be applied to any relationship in life. Could you talk to that? Linda Berlot | 23:18 Absolutely. I talk about teams because that's my niche. A hundred percent what you're saying is I can align to totally. The first relationship is with myself, right? So I am the first system. And so whether it's the ICI material or the ORS material, we can integrate it within ourselves. We can create more understanding about who we are and who we want to be given that that's who we are. Then we look at how do I be in relationship with the people around me, my family members, my friends on the sports field, because we're always in relationship and we're very often in a multicultural environment. So it gets played in all places where we are connected or in relationship, whether it's the work environment or the sports field or a social environment, you know, or our personal families. Yeah. Marco Blankenburgh | 24:11 So it brings up a thought in me that culture is almost always created then, even if it's between two people. How do you see that? We're always we're in a relationship, but we're always creating something in that relationship. So could you say that culture is created even between just two people? Linda Berlot | 24:33 That's correct. We believe that systems or relationships are generative. So we're constantly growing and evolving. This is true for personal relationships as well as in the business environment. And because we as individuals are constantly evolving and growing, the culture and the relationship keeps changing, which is why it's so important to stay in conversation and continue to talk about how do we want to be together in the relationship or in the team, given that we are growing and changes are happening. Right. Marco Blankenburgh | 25:08 Now, if you look at the year that's behind us, a very disruptive year for many of us. How do you see this in the world that we live in today? Why would you say your work is maybe especially significant in the world that we live in? We've just entered into 2021. The situation hasn't miraculously changed. If anything, relationships have become more challenging. How is your work making a di erence? Linda Berlot | 25:38 That's a great question. Thank you, Marco, for that question, because for me, it really is important to be making a di erence. I think last year we partnered with our teams very often at no cost to them because teams and systems needed a space where they were held. They needed to be able to vent, to talk about their fears and then to start to look at how do I, instead of reacting to the change, how do I create from it? But when we're stuck in that fear dynamic, it's hard to be creative. So there was a space for that. This year, the work and the conversations that we're having with our clients are more around teams being burnt out, being really at the end of their tether, and yet nobody can give up because we have to keep going. So to help leaders be in conversation, to continue to create environments where there's empathy and heart and compassion. So moving away from very much the doing to the being. I think in the last two years, leaders have really had to look at stretching themselves in di erent ways of leadership to include more empathy and heart in their leadership. Marco Blankenburgh | 26:54 So it's easy to say that, but especially when the job has to get done and where the goals have to be met, the financial targets have to be achieved. It almost sounds counterintuitive. Compassion, heart, empathy. What would you say to leaders who say, well, that sounds very woolly or flu y? What would you say to them? Linda Berlot | 27:22 Well, there's lots of data that can relate to the fact that positivity equals productivity. So positivity is really how safe I feel, how much trust I feel is in the relationship or in the team. How able am I to speak openly and not be criticized for speaking up? How can all of these things, how free am I to share how vulnerable I'm feeling or how afraid I'm feeling? And if a leader can create an environment like that, the team will pull together and be more productive. So there's a direct business case to staying in the woolly or soft stu that you mentioned, because we're human after all, and that it will produce results. Marco Blankenburgh | 28:06 Now, you've had the opportunity to use intercultural intelligence. It's just from the conversation we had. It's great to hear you explain how ORSC and ICI just are almost hand in glove. They fit well together. What would you say to other people who are working with teams, who might be coaches or maybe even ask other ORSC practitioners? What would you say to them if they're saying, interesting conversation? Why should I consider this? What's in it for me or what could I expect in the road ahead if I start to explore ICI? Linda Berlot | 28:45 Well, in the globalized world that we live in, where there are so many placements outside countries of origin, people are traveling more. Even during COVID, when we're not traveling, we are more connected than ever on Zoom. Marco Blankenburgh | 28:58 We're virtually traveling. Linda Berlot | 29:00 We're virtually traveling. So I think monocultural environments are becoming rarer and rarer. I truly believe that becoming interculturally smart and savvy is a 21st century leadership skill. And you don't have to be a leader in order to exercise this. It's vital. I look at the gift of young people growing up in a world such as this, where they learn very quickly to interact with di erent cultures and learn about change. And I think that they have an advantage out in the world because they were able to fluidly navigate in di erent cultures and be successful in those di erent worlds. So for me, as leaders or coaches, we want to be successful in a multicultural environment. These intercultural skills are vital. Marco Blankenburgh | 29:53 Now, 2021 is still ahead of us. We're one month in. And you mentioned earlier on positivity equals productivity. How do you see this year? What are your hopes, dreams? What do you see in the year ahead of us? Linda Berlot | 30:10 I want to stay positive. I think the thing to manage is exhaustion and burnout. That's for me the challenge. We all crossed an edge last year. It was frightening. We're a little bit smarter than we were last year. And I truly believe with every change comes opportunity. And it's opened the door to so many di erent opportunities for learning. The virtual world now puts us in di erent countries, in di erent people's lounges and kitchens. And it's, for me, beautiful because all of a sudden we can start to relate to each other as people, not just as workers. So for me, there's lots of opportunity. I feel optimistic, even though I'm not blind to the challenges. I feel optimistic that we can reach each other in di erent ways and connect together in di erent ways. With a lot more compassion, a lot more understanding of the diversity that lives between us. Marco Blankenburgh | 31:13 Fascinating. Thank you so much for this conversation. I've really enjoyed it. I love your perspective on teams, on relationships in general. And the way you've taken the environments that you were thrust into as a young person and taken all that learning into turning it into a career and a company that you've had the privilege of founding. So thank you for making the time. And we will make sure that information on how to connect with you will be posted at the end of this podcast. And thank you for joining. Linda Berlot | 31:50 Thank you, Marco, for inviting me to the conversation. It's a topic that I'm passionate about. I always thoroughly enjoy having this conversation with you. So thank you. It's been fun. Episode 2 – Intercultural Coaching with Paul Willia